Sandeep Unnithan:

Hello and welcome to Chakra News. I'm Sandeep Unnithan and I'm joined by my colleague Colonel Anurag Awasthi. Now, we're going to talk of a very specific event that occurred exactly 25 years back, literally to the day, Colonel Awasthi, you know, 9-11, the worst terror attack in history.

Nearly 3,000 people died on the 11th of September 2001. Colonel Awasthi, where were you when the towers went down?

Col Anurag Awasthi:

I was in the valley. I was in the valley when the biggest black swan event, as they call it, in the history of, you know, this century has taken place. I think it was terrible and one has had the privilege of, you know, going to ground zero in 2005, four years after the attack and one could really understand, you know, that what kind of a twisted ideology was this.

I wonder what they did and 2,977 dead, that's the count. So, I think it's terrible, terrible.

Sandeep Unnithan:

And you know, the worst terror attack before that, was the Bombay bombings of 1993. Just about 272 people had died and here you killed like nearly 3,000 people. I mean, that was horrific what happened over there.

But, you know, I wanted to talk today about not just 9-11. What happened there was horrific and I think we should give our viewers an idea of what actually happened in 9-11 because it's been 25 years. It's a quarter of a century.

Just to give you an idea of why this was so devastating, that attack itself, hijacking airliners, flying them into buildings, into landmarks, like, you know, this is how it actually unfolded. You had four airliners being hijacked. The first one that took off from Washington, another one that took off from New York and there were two that took off from Boston.

Was it two that took off from New York? Four airliners were hijacked by these Al-Qaeda terrorists and the plan was to crash them into buildings in the United States. And of course, the first one that flew was, I think it was at New York.

Two of them hit the twin towers, of course, a few hours, half hour apart, one after the other. Those twin towers came down. Then you had the, that very famous thing on the Pentagon, the one that flew off from Washington, went and crashed into the Pentagon.

And the fourth one, and this is the most interesting one, United Airlines flight 93 was the last airliner that was still in the air, where the passengers put up a heroic resistance. They overpowered the hijackers and that crashed in that field in Pennsylvania. That's correct.

And I believe that the final target for that as it's, you know, emerged over the years was they planned to attack Capitol Hill. That's correct. That very visible symbol.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

The seat of power.

Sandeep Unnithan:

The seat of power in the United States. So, it was meant to, you know, attack these very visible symbols of American power. But today we're going to talk about more than just 9-11, about how it kind of galvanized the Pakistan deep state in our neighborhood.

And that has kind of affected us in a lot of ways. And we've seen in the past, Karnavastya, as you'll agree, that every time there's a crisis, it's the Pakistan military that's there, ready to help. And, you know, we know what happened after 9-11.

Of course. The dictator, Parvez Musharraf was in the doghouse. Yes. Literally, because he had overthrown Parvez Musharraf. He had overthrown Nawaz Sharif. He was the dictator. He had Kargil, he had carried on.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Chief executive. That's what he called himself.

Sandeep Unnithan:

He called himself the chief executive. And lo and behold, he's the favorite, not the fieldmaster, the favorite general of the United States. He was given an ultimatum to, you're either with us or you're against us.

George W. Bush gave him that ultimatum. And Pakistan delivered everything from, you know, terrorists to bases, drone bases, and they collected a hefty fee. We've seen this in the past as well. And where have we seen that? Zia-ul-Haq and Ronald Reagan.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

It's a normal playbook, actually. That's the way it works, you know, and especially Musharraf, post the 1999, right, you know, the Kargil incursions. And thereafter, the Pakistani defeat and rout in Op Vijay and all of that in Kargil. And he was on thin ice.

Sandeep Unnithan:

You're a Kargil veteran yourself.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

They were in bad waters. They didn't know what to do. Finally, the money has to come in.

Finally, the weapons have to come in. Finally, there's Afghanistan where, you know, there is a lot of turmoil happening at that time. So, what do you do? So, that's the best card Pakistan always plays. Right. Cozy up.

Sandeep Unnithan:

Cozy up to the Americans. And then you, you know, you deliver what they want. You know, Bob's your uncle, as they say in the United States.

But, you know, we've seen this playbook before. Asim Munir, Trump's favorite field marshal. Salesman of the year. Yeah. Selling rocks to President Trump in the White House.

But we've seen this playbook before. And it's a, it's a very familiar kind of a playbook. And I'll take you back to 1979.

And what happens in 1979? Well, it's December of 1979. The Soviet Union decides to invade Afghanistan. And which is the country that becomes the frontline ally in the war against the Soviet Union? It's… No points for guessing.

It's General Zia-ul-Haq. And Zia-ul-Haq is a interesting dictator. He's one of the longest serving dictators in Pakistan. More than 10 years, 11 years, he ruled Pakistan. So, he takes over power in 1977. And he overthrows Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Hangs him. Yeah, and he hangs him. You know, just look at this picture.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Menacing.

Sandeep Unnithan:

This is the ultimate photograph of very obsequious General Zia with his benefactor, President Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who many argue was a civilian dictator himself. He was the chief martial law administrator of the 71 war. And he chose this guy because he looked very harmless to him.

He looked very obsequious. So, he had a lot to prove then, right? And Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who is an aristocratic Sindhi landlord, picks up Zia-ul-Haq.

He makes him the chief. And lo and behold, he throws him into jail and executes him in 1979. That's correct.

So, in 79, Zia is in the doghouse. Nobody likes him. There's a suspected nuclear weapons program.

There is, of course, this thing of a dictatorship. He's overthrown a democracy. But then what happens?

Soviet Union invades. And suddenly Zia-ul-Haq becomes the most favored dictator in the world. And, you know, there's that case of the Americans going to Zia and asking for, you know, saying that we're going to give you 300 million or something.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

And he says, it's peanuts. The entire state, all since 1947, it's an India state, anything for money, right?

Sandeep Unnithan:

Anything for money. So, and this is the Pakistan dictator's playbook. And it's unnerving how history repeats.

1979, you have Zia and Ronald Reagan, who's fighting the big fight against the Soviet Union. In 2001, you have Musharraf and George W. Bush.

And in 2025, you have Asim Munir and Trump. So, it's three dictators, international, you know, crises, black swan event, as you mentioned. And they always come to the assistance of the United States.

We are your, you know, favorite, most favored nation.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

You need to look at, you know, three aspects in this. Firstly, you have to look at the strategic location of Pakistan. So, that is always, you know, tradable in some manner or the other.

It lies geographically into a place where it is supposed to be, you know, quite geographically aligned to a lot of things in towards Central Asia, towards South Asia, towards the Middle East.

Sandeep Unnithan:

It's a link with China and it's very close to the wells of power, as you called it.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

That's correct. So, this strategic location, and as you know, Robert Kaplan says in the image of geography, you know, it's always been used by the Pakistani establishment, the way it is supposed to be used. And the second thing is, you know, countries have armies and here the army has a country.

So, it's a great dangerous mix. So, you have an army with the country, you have the strategic location, and then you have the nukes. And you have the nukes.

So, these are the three major issues that if you look at it and you make a potpourri of it, well, you've got a recipe for extracting what you want. Right.

Sandeep Unnithan:

The rentier state, that is Pakistan. But, you know, like we're talking about this very peculiar aspect of how Pakistan becomes this most favored nation, if you can call it that, to fight either the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, or fight the Taliban in Afghanistan, which is what happened after 9-11, when the Americans went in, you're either with us or you're against us. And Musharraf kind of opened all his bases, he started fighting them, fighting with the United States against the Taliban.

But he was at the same time also in bed with the Taliban. So, they were very famously, you know, running with the hares and hunting with the hounds, as they call it.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

But then, you know, you create a tiger. Yeah. But at some stage, you know, you get to ride it, right. So, or the tiger eats you up. The same thing has happened. It's bounced back in the manner that was supposed to bounce back.

Right. You know, now you look at the Tariq-e-Taliban Pakistan. Yes. Or what's happening in the areas of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. It's the same story. It's just a reverse of what they had, you know, created.

Right. And now it's biting them the way it's supposed to bite it. Right. So, there's a thing called blowback, right, in all of these guerrilla wars and all that.

Sandeep Unnithan:

I think the most famous instance is Osama Bin Laden. Oh, yes, of course. And he was brought in by the United States, by the CIA, many people say.

He was a wealthy aristocrat from Saudi Arabia, a very, very powerful family that had made its fortune in construction. And of course, he had gone on to build tunnels in Afghanistan. Roads in Africa.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Roads in Africa.

Sandeep Unnithan:

And he was a construction guy. And he, of course, did the reverse of what builders do, which is demolitions in 9-11. Many people argue that he was actually one of the masterminds of that.

And in videos, there's ample evidence of him actually having told them how you could bring buildings down by, you know, airliners filled with fuel are like flying missiles. Exactly. And that's what they did.

They brought down those two towers and they attacked the Pentagon. And of course, fortunately, for the bravery of those American civilians on United 93, they couldn't do the same with the fourth airliner. But Osama Bin Laden is interesting.

He's a guy who kind of transitions from one crisis, which is the invasion of Afghanistan 79, when he makes his fortune and he makes his mark as a, you know, as a so-called guerrilla leader, but then crosses over to the dark side. He launches Al-Qaeda into an anti-American force. But very interestingly, Osama Bin Laden is found, guess where?

Abbottabad. And where is Abbottabad? Oh, there you go.

Abbottabad is a stone's throw away from Pakistan's military academy at Kakul. That would be like America's most wanted terrorist being found a stone's throw away from the IMA in Dehradun. That would be the equivalent, except we don't do that kind of stuff.

But it's very interesting that in 2011, that is a decade after 9-11, American special forces trace Osama Bin Laden down to this safe house in Abbottabad. He's living there in full public view, it would seem. There's a very interesting book by Carlotta Gall, a New York Times reporter, where she actually writes about the fact that the ISI was the one that was harboring Osama Bin Laden.

And they had created a special cell within the ISI, headed by just one officer, who was basically the Bin Laden disk.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

But then, you have to understand, beyond a point, if he was found on the Pakistani soil, and then the American special forces got in and finally killed him, and we all remember what kind of a burial he was given and all of that. Burial at sea. Burial at sea and all of that.

This, I think, soured a quantum of relations between the United States and Pakistan yet again. This was again one of those very major, you know, turning points. It was a turnpike where the relations between the two countries again got a little spoiled.

Sandeep Unnithan:

But then they were back on track again. Because I think, you know, like you mentioned, the inevitability of Pakistan's geography.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

The three things. The three things, strategic location, the Pakistani military and the nukes. You mix it, you got a game ready to be played again, even if you have a losing hand.

Sandeep Unnithan:

But, you know, it's interesting that it's not just Osama Bin Laden who's found over there, but in Abbottabad. But Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is found in a safe house. And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he's half Pakistani.

He's Pakistani Kuwaiti. And KSM is found in a safe house in Rawalpindi, which is the headquarters of the Pakistan army. That's the general headquarters Rawalpindi.

And KSM is the senior most Al-Qaeda member who's on trial for the 9-11, you know, hijackings and, of course, the killings of nearly 3000 people. KSM is in Guantanamo Bay. I think he's under trial and I think his trial should begin very soon.

And he's had a 25-year, you know, hiatus in prison. He's doing well for himself, it would look like. But this is a story that, you know, continues.

But we're straying off track because we're focused on how the Pakistani deep state was created literally after 9-11. So, the origins of the Pakistani deep state can be traced back to 1979 when the war against the Soviet Union began in Afghanistan. And this was when the beginnings of the ISI.

The ISI was, as we would joke, the ISI was a chai ki tapri in 1979 when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. But the kind of money and expertise and arms and ammunition that flowed in between 79 and 88 till the time that the Soviets left, the ISI had become like this gigantic conglomerate, an MNC. You know, they were doing all kinds of things.

They were moving drugs, they were moving arms. Aren't they doing now? They are, yeah.

But they started doing that in between 79 and 88. And of course, it's officers like Karnal Awasthi who were to bear the brunt of it fighting insurgency first in Punjab and then in Jammu and Kashmir because you were actually facing the full, bearing the full brunt of Operation Cyclone, which was that massive arms pipeline that the West had channelized into Pakistan. And post 9-11, you had one very significant attack and that's the attack on India's parliament.

And this comes just what, three months after 9-11? Where were you during the attack on parliament?

Col Anurag Awasthi:

I had just moved out of the valley, joined my regiment and another 20 days we were mobilized again.

Sandeep Unnithan:

So, you know, I would argue that the second phase in the Pakistan deep states evolution began post 9-11. So, the first phase began with the war against the Soviet Union. The second phase began after 2001, where again, money, arms, all of that started to flow in.

And most importantly, F-16s, they were on a, literally on a drip, you know, before 2001 happened. But after 2001, Musharraf suddenly becomes a favorite, this thing is, you know, the apple of everyone's eye, like you mentioned, for reasons of geography. And the arms start to flow again, F-16s start coming into Pakistan.

They get their M-Rams, which they used against us in, during Balakot. Now, that's the second phase of the Pakistani deep state. And I think, I would argue that the Pak military knew how important they were for the Americans.

And therefore, Musharraf launched this wave of terror attacks against India, beginning from the parliament attack in 2001, going up to the 2006 train bombings in Mumbai, where more than 200 people were killed. It was ghastly. It's, I mean, I'm from Mumbai.

I know the pain of that thing. I've seen all of these terror attacks from, you know, up close. And of course, 26-11, right?

The most spectacular of these three attacks, 93, 2006 and 2008. And there's a very interesting story, Colonel Awasthi, about how the Americans had all the intel about 26-11, about the plotters, who was doing it, Lashkar-e-Taiba was doing it, but they were being supported by the Pakistan army. David Headley was actually a US mole, who had been planted into the Lashkar to get intel on Osama bin Laden, because they believed that LET, the Pak deep state had access to Osama bin Laden Al-Qaeda.

They wanted to penetrate it through this route. David Headley appeared to be the most obvious choice as a mole. And they didn't tell us the whole picture about 26-11.

They gave us those alerts. So, all of those alerts that we saw a steady drumbeat of terror alerts from 2006 to right up to 2008. Right down to the time that the trawler sails, sets sail from Karachi with the 10 terrorists who attacked Mumbai.

The Americans didn't give us the whole picture because they didn't want to blow Headley's cover. That's one theory. And we have none other than NSA, the then NSA, MK Narayanan, who came out.

In fact, when I was at News 9, we did this documentary where we spoke with him, we interviewed him. And he was very bitter. He remains bitter about the fact that the Americans knew, but they didn't tell us the whole plot of 26-11, because they were trying to get to Osama bin Laden.

So, you had this, you know, specter of the Pakistan deep state that's in the American camp. They know how useful they are to the Americans. And therefore, they start attacking India.

They launch terror attacks because they know that as long as the Americans have their back, nothing's going to happen to them. And, you know, and which is why I kind of wonder about Operation Sindhu. You know, we've had these conversations last year, when how by an extraordinary coincidence, you have Imran Khan, who's the most popular man in Pakistan, even today.

He's thrown into prison. And you have a military dictator like Asim Munir, literally being, you know, fashioned the path, the route to his, his power is cleared. He's brought in there.

And he launches this war against India.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

But Sandeep, you know, there is a very important shift into this entire story between 2021 and 2026. When you look at it in 2021, Taliban gets back to power. 15th August 2021.

Yeah, five years back. Five years back, they come back to power. And we've seen those, you know, strange images of people latching on to the, you know, the C-17.

Sandeep Unnithan:

Yeah, trying to flee.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Yeah, trying to flee. It was very heart wrenching. And all of that.

And the entire equipment and everything is left behind and all of that and somebody exits. Right now, between 2021 and 2026, there's a lot of sea change in politics and, you know, the hinging of the deep state or, you know, the political and military establishment of Pakistan. In 2021, the primary mode of leaning of the entire Pakistani military and political establishment is still United States of America.

Right. But somewhere down the line between these five years, the new front of China has come up. So, they are now, you know, back into the, you know, the ambit of the United States.

They're back in the US orbit. Yeah, orbit. But at the same time, they have their own channels open with the Chinese.

Right. So, this is a very big change.

Sandeep Unnithan:

As I joke about the Ajay Devgn maneuver.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Yeah, the full encante, you know, but that doesn't end well beyond a point. Right.

Sandeep Unnithan:

Even the pole.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

There's a pole which suddenly shows up. Right. So, it doesn't end well.

So, now this between 2021 and 2026, when you look at it, there's a, this is a very major shift, which we have to understand. Now, how it plays out, I really don't know. Right.

And add to it the economics. Yeah. Add to it the BRI or the Belt and Road, you know, initiative and the infrastructure, which is being developed.

Yeah. Add to it the Ukraine, the war which started in 2022. Add to it the Iran, you know, US Israel conflict, which is still raging.

Sandeep Unnithan:

Right.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

And somewhere in the middle, don't forget Gaza. Yes. So, a lot of things have now got altered in the overall landscape.

Right. So, while a lot of things are happening this way, you would also find, you know, there are some other alliances which suddenly have started mushing up.

Sandeep Unnithan:

MDA, the Makar Defense Agreement.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Makar Defense Agreement. You suddenly have a defense agreement with Kuwait. Right.

You know, you suddenly hang around an SCO also.

Sandeep Unnithan:

Yeah.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

You suddenly become the president of SCO. Yeah. In your term.

Yeah. And all of that. So, while all of this is okay, suddenly there's a huge resurgence of Central Asia also.

Yes. And the great game is now going to be played again.

Sandeep Unnithan:

Yeah, a new great game has begun.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

A new great game.

Sandeep Unnithan:

You know, what you mentioned just now, I mean, that just set me thinking about how, it's a region in crisis. Yes. You have two simultaneous wars on Russia-Ukraine, which I think Putin wants to now end.

There's been a lot of conversation on that.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Four and a half years.

Sandeep Unnithan:

It's been on without, you know.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Four and a half years.

Sandeep Unnithan:

They've got a lot of territory, but I think it doesn't look like they can get all of Donbass. You have the Iran-US war, which is in the most intense fighting phase since April. Now.

Now. And so, I was just thinking about these two business models that you're looking at. One is, of course, India.

Right. India needs peace, prosperity, stability for the economy to grow. Right.

You need to keep growing at 7-8% if you want to become a developed nation by 2047. Yes. And on the other hand, you have Pakistan, whose business model, like you mentioned, is a rentier state, which a rentier state is one that does not have the resources to make both ends meet. And therefore, it needs to get resources from outside. How does it do that? By being the firefighter and being useful to countries around and, you know, renting out their services and what service do they rent out?

It's like, oh, I'm your firefighter. I can put out this fire for you. I can put out that fire for you. So, the Pakistan military needs crisis like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, yeah, 9-11, Iran, Gaza, all of you. It thrives in crisis. It's literally, it should be called crisis-istan.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

So, the Gulistan here is Rawalpindi, GHQ Rawalpindi.

Sandeep Unnithan:

And they have, they're always ready to play the firefighter. But here's the thing, you know, someone gave this line. I don't know who said it.

It's an apt summing up of the Pakistan army, which is that these are the arsonists who pretend to be the firefighters. So, they start the fire. Very profound statement.

They start the fire and then they come and say, no, no, we'll put this fire out for you. But so, 9-11 also was that phase, which, you know, gave them that thing. But, you know, it came at a horrific cost for Pakistan.

I mean, I was just looking at the numbers. You had, what, 80,000 Pakistanis, 90,000 Pakistanis who died. Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

Still going on, raging.

Sandeep Unnithan:

It is today out of control. They're carrying out attacks in TTP and in Balochistan is in flames. There is severe, sin is, there's sparks over there.

Simmer. But, I think the most interesting statement that I saw off late came from, guess who? Mariam Nawaz.

And she came out, the chief minister of Punjab. She comes out with a statement saying that, you know, she’s actually saying that, you know, Punjab has more to worry about Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan than Afghanistan and India. She's not wrong.

She's spot on. She's actually, to my mind, I think this is the most sensible thing that I've, you know, heard in a long time. And you have to give it to the women of Pakistan.

They always are the ones who come out with big revelations, whether it's Nasim Zehra with her book on Kargil to, from Kargil to coup, or it's Ayesha Siddiqui who came out with this military ink book. And now you have Mariam Nawaz. Not that she's any great scholar or anything, but she's summed up the zeitgeist of Pakistan.

Here is an arsonist deep state that goes on pretending to be the firefighter, but then creates so much of chaos within its own country. The people are severely inconvenienced. They're not getting there, you know, their due.

And we just did this on Chakra. You must have read that story about how it would take just two hangar class submarines to build Pakistan one dam. They have one of the worst water retaining infrastructure in the world.

30 days or something like that. They keep crying over the IWT, but their water storage capacity is so abysmal. How many dams do they have, Sandeep?

Sandeep Unnithan:

they have fewer dams than the state of Gujarat. Gujarat has more dams than Pakistan. So, your priorities are wrong.

Maharashtra, I wonder how many dams. 2000 plus dams, no comparison. But here's the thing, so you've got your priorities all wrong because the military is controlling the thing and the civilian establishment is calling it out and from time to time you have external crises that come to the rescue of this Pakistani state.

And who knows what the future is going to play out and you have to see where Musharraf, the wrong, Muneer, where Muneer is going with this. It's almost alliterative. Musharraf to Muneer and where he's going to take Pakistan.

Now he believes that he's the man who's been sent down to planet earth to save Pakistan. He has that dictator complex. All Pakistani dictators believe they are God's chosen ones to deliver Pakistan from, you know, adversity and strife and they end up leaving Pakistan in far worse condition than they did when they took over.

So, I mean, that's our talk today on 9-11. It's a very solemn occasion. We remember those 3,000 people who died and several tens of thousands, several hundreds of thousands in fact of people who died after 9-11 in the wars that followed when the United States went around attacking Iraq and Syria and Libya.

ISIS was created as a direct result of the war in Iraq and invasion and occupation.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

In fact, I was telling somebody, I said, you know, it's not 2,977. You're looking at 3,000. You multiply it by four.

You basically spoiled 12,000 people beyond a point. Their families are also involved in whatever it is.

Sandeep Unnithan:

And you've waged six trillion-dollar wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, you know, endless cycle of violence.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

It was one of the biggest defining moments in history. It was the biggest U-turn which this century has ever seen and I don't think it'll ever come back because this is, I think, firstly, it was very ghastly. Secondly, I think it brings out a very twisted ideology.

You cannot do this in civility. You cannot do this for anybody who's got a sane mind, can't even perceive such things what have happened in 9-11.

Sandeep Unnithan:

Barbaric.

Col Anurag Awasthi:

It is back to the, you know, the caveman era and, you know, I really feel very bad about this event. In fact, I wonder what, you know, lies ahead beyond this because I really hope that something like this never takes place ever again because this, I think, it's a blot in humanity what has happened beyond a point. Absolutely.

Sandeep Unnithan:

It's a blot. Innocent, many innocent people died, like I mentioned, not just in New York, but in Iraq, Afghanistan, all across the world. And here we are back to talking about the more that things appear to change, the more they appear to remain the same, the more they remain the same and history never repeats.

But in the case of Pakistan and the United States, it rhymes. Yes, it does rhyme and I think fortune favours the smart. Right, who knows how that story is going to play out.

But thank you very much for watching and we'll be back very soon with another installment of our Chakra Conversations. Thank you, Col Awasthi. Thank you, Sandeep.